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Oo! Let’s Make a Game! Episode 5: Sticky Situations!
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Robert Bohl – Admin

7:01 pm – September 26, 2009

posts 55

I get why people are nervous about the currents stuff, but to me I see them as great ways for us to get creative juice while building the game, and things that probably won't be present in anything like the form (and certainly not the words) present in that Wikipedia article.

Thanks for your comments, Doc.

My endeavors:
Misspent Youth: Teenage rebellion in a fucked-up future.
The Independent Insurgency

lumpley – Member

12:49 pm – September 29, 2009

posts 40

I'm certain you'll be terribly, terribly shocked to learn that I have opinions about the focus issue. They're irritatingly opiniony, so I'll spare you the details, but I can boil them down to a recommendation.

The solution is:

1) Design the game with a broad setup (like Shadowrun's, for instance). Vague is not the same as broad.

2) Provide for a variety of starting characters and character types (like Dollhouse's).

3) Imagine and write the initial setup as a kicking-off place, as only the first situation to be resolved, not the entire situation to be resolved. This means writing sandbox rules, not story resolution rules.

(Sandbox rules can still create stories, of course.)

Robert Bohl – Admin

12:54 pm – September 29, 2009

posts 55

I'd love to hear the expanded thoughts, either here or live. Specifically I'd like to know more about what you mean by a broad setup. Also, sandbox vs. story resolution rules.

My endeavors:
Misspent Youth: Teenage rebellion in a fucked-up future.
The Independent Insurgency

lumpley – Member

2:43 pm – September 29, 2009

posts 40

Broad setups:

“The characters deal with their problems” is vague. It allows for all kinds of potential action, but doesn't actually suggest any.

“The characters take on corporations, gangs, and rival operatives” is concrete but broad. It also allows for all kinds of potential action, and furthermore it's easy to see what kinds of actions and what they'll mean.

The latter is a design brief, it tells you what you're going to need to design rules for. Corporations, gangs, rival operatives, and the taking on of them, when why where and how. The former doesn't tell you what rules you're going to need to design. You'll have to build upon it - until it resembles the latter, in fact - before you can start.

Sandbox vs story resolution:

Take an example setup. Um, “you play people in a war ravaged refugee camp dealing with their problems by swapping bodies.” Do you treat that as a summary of the game's potential fiction – like Misspent Youth does – or as just one circumstance possible in a whole potentially realizable fictional setting?

If my character swaps bodies with an international aid worker, and then six weeks later with a US senator, married with grown children and owing her reelection to corrupt union officials … can the game make all of those transitions with her? If my character swaps bodies instead with a soldier, then later with an ambitious warlord fighting for stability via mass murder … can the game make all of those transitions too, just as easily? If my character gets killed, can I make a new one?

Does the game accomodate every possible development, or does it drive and limit deveolpments to suit its prevision of story?

This'll be crucial if you want to keep introducing new transhumanizing technologies as play continues. My character starts out as a refugee in a war camp, swaps bodies to get out, and ends up 1000 years later, 20 sessions of play later, as one of the 4 core seed-personalities in a massively distributed AI who's preserving human culture from gray goo, right? If your game treats “people in a war ravaged refugee camp” as the boundaries of the fiction, play can't go that way.

joshua – Admin

11:21 am – October 1, 2009

posts 159

I've deliberately not read much of this thread. I'm posting in a new thread to put together an idear.

Joshua A.C. Newman

joshua – Admin

11:25 pm – October 1, 2009

posts 159

OK, here we go. Now I'll go back and read this thread.

Joshua A.C. Newman

joshua – Admin

12:24 am – October 2, 2009

posts 159

Alright, so, dig:

Tim: That's what happened in 100 Bullets. The vignettes evaporated in the face of the criminal conspiracy. It stopped being about the people on the street whose lives had been destroyed for political and fiscal gain and became about be people who were gaining.

Doc: You're watching sausages get made here. No one things they want to eat a pig snout, but they sure like chorizo. Think about the currents as pig snouts.

Also, I don't have a problem with using a specific situation as a starting position, then letting players hack it to make different settings. They'll do it anyway.

Or, put another way, If I want to generate the setting on the fly, I'll play Shock: which has rules for it already. It's possible that this game will feed a future edition, of course, but right now, I want to keep this tight and focused because it makes our job easier.

So, where I'm at right now is that there's a war on. You're in it. It's the nasty, 21st century kind of war, where it's always there, multiple factions are involved, and it's over the distribution of concrete resources based on abstract identity markers. You can change what you are in order to make things happen, and maybe that will change who you are.

More to come in the sister thread over there.

Joshua A.C. Newman

Dave (aka Nev) – Guest

1:31 am – October 3, 2009

So. That ep was a bit frustrating to listen to toward the end… probably mostly just because it was 2 freakin' hours long, and I don't even want to listen to MYSELF for that long.


Anyway. Some interesting stuff in there. Here's what went through my head while I was listening:


The “mysterious benefactor” thing: it's a framing device. A clever one, potentially. Rob likes it. Josh isn't so sure. Here's my idea, stated as a semi-example:


First Scenario: Pick a Current. Make up a character who is at the crux of that Current. This scenario is about them, and how transhumanist technology changes their situation (and the world around them), for better or for worse. The vehicle for introducing this technology is the Agent, who shows up out of nowhere and says “Hey, it looks like you have problems. I'm in a position to give you the power to change things.” (NOT, “I'm in a position to rescue you”, or whatever). This mysterious Agent provides financial and maybe political/beaureaucratic (jesus that's a lot of vowels) backing to whatever the subject (focal character) decides to do with themselves. Somehow, this gets played out, with players creating and playing supporting roles as needed. At some point, the subject, who is now Patient Zero for whatever transfigurative technology they got into, achieves their goal- having paid whatever costs along the way, and with whatever potentially unforeseen consequences that goal may have incurred, through play. Scenario ends.


Next Scenario: Some Duration Later (importantly, a duration during which the results of the previous scenario have permeated the setting to some degree, such that these results will have some impact on the current scenario). Pick a Current. Make up a character who is at the crux of that current, *as it relates to/is influenced by established technological trends resulting from prior scenario(s)*. This scenario is about them, and how transhumanist technology changes their situation (and the world around them), for better or for worse. The vehicle for introducing this technology is the Agent… who is one of the focal characters from a prior scenario.


Wash, Rinse, Repeat.


So. You have your serial fiction thing. You have your framing device. You have your technological progression. You have your freedom to reincorporate, to reintroduce old characters (including supporting cast if desired). You have your freedom to NOT reintroduce old characters directly (the former-focus-as-Agent need not be more than the Mysterious Benefactor unless you wish them to be, in which case they can be as much or as little informed by their previous fictional incarnation as you like).


I'm imagining the chain as a product of a sort of vague intersection between “pay it forward” and “we helped you, now you owe us”, with each protagonist, as a condition of their acceptance of the gift of support from the Agent, agreeing to be a representative of <insert mysterious agency or whatever here> in their turn. What happens after that is negotiable. Maybe they only show up once. Maybe they keep returning. Maybe they go rogue. Maybe they try to recruit for their own ends. Who knows.


So. Some ideas. Take from them what you will.


Other thoughts:

Does the addict who's been granted immortality lose the motivation to overcome their addiction now that they can't die?  “Wait… you mean I can stay f*cked up… forever?”


Character vignettes are just representative of the broad strokes of world-altering technology. (I'm not sure what that one means exactly, I just scrawled it on the back of an envelope as I was driving home).


That's it!  Looking forward to the next 'cast… although I hope it's not 2 hours long again >_<

Dave (aka Nev) – Guest

1:43 am – October 3, 2009

I was pondering an actual example, albeit a halfassed one:


Scenario 1: Setting: Nowish. Trend: Immortalism. Character: Cancer patient terrified of death. Technology: Nano-repair-bot-injections that make people effectively immortal.


Scenario 2: Setting: Near-future where overpopulation as a result of immortality has resulted in ghettoization of most urban centers, thirty story single family tenements; breakdown of inheritance laws, massive pollution, etc. Character: Twenty-third generation kid who's tired of being crammed into a room with his eighty cousins and nephews. Trend: I forget what they all are, but insert one here.

Now, Patient Zero, the cancer patient from Scenario 1, who is now essentially Methuselah, shows up and offers our cramped-for-space kid the power to change what he will.


I'm too tired to continue this example, it's almost 1… holy crap, it's almost 1 >_<… so, yeah. You get the idea, I think. You're smart guys.

Robert Bohl – Admin

9:29 am – October 3, 2009

posts 55

Thanks for the commentary, Dave. Good stuff to think about there.

We won't be doing another two-hour episode.

My endeavors:
Misspent Youth: Teenage rebellion in a fucked-up future.
The Independent Insurgency

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