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| joshua posts 217 11:48 am May 12, 2010
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I just want to make sure this is properly highlighted:
in what ways are civilizations barbarous, and in what ways are barbarity civilized?
That's not only the fundamental theme of Conan, but, when you remove the tawdry baggage, is a really interesting theme.
I think that the naked slave girl is perfect for her place in the list, because of the figure of power that a naked slave girl is. Look at the other items on the treasure list: how many of them, for instance, can you really own? How many of them instead command your respect, or your wariness, or even come to own you? Even if you treat her without humanity, she's “treasure” to be reckoned with.
I don't know how On Mighty Thews treats characters, but my guess is that, if you're using this in D&D, where it's most likely to be used in this brochurely form, it will be technically difficult to make her a character, a person. Were I to make a game about slaves, and I've always wanted to, I'd have some basic stuff that all characters needed, slave or otherwise: family, possessions, objectives, friends and allies. Without those things, she's an object of desire (she is, after all, Treasure) to be stolen by and/or from the PCs, or a quivering victim, or whatever. Without pre-designing her humanity, character sheet and all, she's nothing more than a probably spontaneously derived number of hit points designed to evoke sympathy.
Remember why players don't take sidekicks in D&D or GURPS (where they're a Disadvantage): they are a point of vulnerability for the PCs.
I think that you're obviously poking some fun with the "racist stereotype" thing. You're calling it out. I'm assuming that people are going to look at that and say, "Oh. Um. Maybe I'll do something else." Of course they're the one element you'd never choose to use. It's commentary as easter egg.
Are you rehabilitating the Skraelings by making them elves, or what? If so, how come you aren't also rehabilitating the Khitani, the Kushites, the Picts, the Shemites, the Stygians…?
I don't remember most of these people (other than the Stygians), so I don't have any attachment to their presence or absence, but I have to point out that Simon's already pushing up pretty hard against his margins. If these are important, other stuff is going to have to go, and this list is pretty darn cool.
On the other hand, if those other folks are as atrociously rendered as the Stygians, it might be worth it to consider how they fit into this.
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Member | lumpley posts 40 2:00 pm May 12, 2010
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Well, I don't think there's any reason to include any of them, they're more-or-less Howard's creations. It just surprised me to see Skraelings there. Why Skraelings and not (per Howard) Khitani, Kushites, Picts, Shemites, Stygians, or another? Why Skraelings and not (per the real world) Aztecs, Ezo, Jutes, Picts, Scythians, or another? And then, why Skraelings for elves — Skraelings being, after all, human?
All of which just to say: Simon! It's strange that Skraelings appear on your list, and strange that they appear where they do. Is that on purpose?
(More when I have more leisure again.)
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Member | Simon C posts 90 6:17 pm May 12, 2010
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We're thinking of the same thing when we think of Skraelings, right?
These guys?
I was thinking "It would be cool if instead of elves you had members of a vast and foreign culture, barely understood by regular folk, who have wildly different technology and association with their land."
Or something like that.
It's kind of skirting on something I'm a little uncomfortable with though. I think it'd be weird to write "Native Americans" instead, even though it's essentially the same thing. Maybe something about how "Skraelings" is about the Viking's perception of native Americans, while just writing "Native Americans" is something about who native americans really are?
Also, Vincent, your opinion of naked slave girls is only slightly nutso. I agree with you like, 70%. Here's my caveat: It's really problematic to have women and sexuality, and especially women's power and sexual power constantly conflated.
Leech-women. Yeah. Wow. I guess that I wrote that hoping that someone would use them, and then all the weird implications and such would just reveal themselves in play.
I think basically my goal with this thing was to make sure that people who wanted to use this pamphlet to recreate the more troubling parts of the genre didn't get an easy ride. I don't know how successful I've been. Counterculture always seems to eventually end up supporting the status quo, and people's ability to see their own prejudices reflected in the material they read is pretty powerful.
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Member | lumpley posts 40 11:35 am May 14, 2010
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The Skraelings: yeah, those guys.
The naked slave girl: oh, yeah, I don't think her power is her sexuality. Her power is the same as the tome of secrets' power, or the intelligent artifact's, or the elixir of immortality's: now that you've encountered it/her, you have to do something. You can't just go on as though you hadn't encountered it/her, or that it/she doesn't matter. You also can't pretend that it's your choice what to do, free and clear, either. It/she has an agenda — in In a Wicked Age terms, best interests — which you are now, having merely encountered it/her, engaged with.
Her sexuality is present, yes, implied by her nakedness, but it doesn't define her power. Whether and how she chooses to use her sexuality, it's nevertheless only one component of who she is and why she's a figure of power. Whether and how the other characters choose to treat her sexually doesn't define her sexuality, and in fact comments upon them, not upon her.
Furthermore, her nakedness implies her sexuality, yes, but they aren't identical at all. Her sexuality is just one of the many things implicated by her nakedness, and I'd argue that it's not even in the top 3 most important. (Her vulnerablity, her until-now subjugation, and her honesty being, if you ask me, the top 3; others' rankings may be different.)
All of this supposes the basic fact of the PCs' own humanity, though. Absent that, I've got nothing to say — I'm just not interested in sword & sorcery that lacks human protagonists. This is my answer to J about his experiences with D&D and GURPS, too: if the characters can't be presumed human, I really have nothing to say about anything. To me, sword & sorcery = presumed humanity, or else why bother.
Fortunately, this document of yours, Simon, does a tremendous job of it. It presumes humanity pretty much without relent, and it pushes its audience to keep up.
The leech-women: as glad as I am that the naked slave girl is on the list, I am SUPER GLAD the leech-women are. They make me so uncomfy! Nothing but good can come of that.
The troubling parts of the genre / counterculture: so yeah, I want you to challenge me to create subversive fiction of my own, I don't need or want you to preach to me about how others' fiction is cliché-affirming. The list's sole preachy entry is the racist caricatures.
Let me be clear! If you publish this list as-is, it'll be great. I think it's a fantastic piece of work. I think that overall the fiction that people create in response to it will be better — including more subversive — than the fiction they were creating without it.
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Member | Simon C posts 90 12:46 am May 15, 2010
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Basically I'm like "yup".
Like I think I said earlier in this thread, the original entry for the "racist caricatures" was just "black people", which I think is more effective in evoking what's problematic while inviting people to deal with those problems in their own games, maybe? I guess I chickened out on that one though, because I don't want people to think I'm seriously suggesting that black people would make a great substitute for orcs, unexamined, in your game.
I think sometimes you've gotta be sensitive to how people are going to read your stuff. My intent isn't as important as what the reader takes away from it, and I guess I didn't want to take that risk.
A friend once said to me that if he's not feeling uncomfortable and slightly offended, then he figures he's not challenging his assumtions enough. I think that's smart.
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Member | lumpley posts 40 2:11 pm May 15, 2010
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I think there might be different ways to take on race and racism in this list. Like, different ways to slice the problem. Are you interested in my thoughts and suggestions about that? I really would hate to be noisy & insistent or to get you tired of it.
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Member | Simon C posts 90 5:03 pm May 15, 2010
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Member | lumpley posts 40 12:06 am May 19, 2010
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These are just thoughts! Try them on, discard and reject them, all good. I don't have an argument here like I have about the slave girl.
1. One thing to notice is that there are women throughout the list (and men too), implicit when not explicit (see, for instance, "bordello"). But people of any specified race or kind appear only in their set-aside categories, even implicitly. How would it work if you scattered them throughout? Ptera-folk under knights, wood-walker under hero, swampling water-maze under dungeon, Neanderthal cave-complex under village?
2. Part of the prob with orcs to begin with is that they're unhuman, right? So you can kill them without that pang of "uh oh I killed someone"? The animal-people orc-substitutes continue in that same vein. They're all easy kill-fodder, and the scorpion-men are even racially problematic kill-fodder, treacherous desert people that they obviously are. How would it work if you made the orc-substitutes human and individual instead?
For instance, Bland — Orc. Pulpy! — Leering guardsman, strangler for money, bloody-handed pirate king, whining sneak-thief, renegade war-band, rapacious treasure-hunter.
You could make the villains be villains, not a race at all.
3. Howard isn't the only sword & sorcery writer; not all sword & sorcery partakes of his racism. Like, read the Flat Earth books and count the white people — they're few, and no more likely to be heroes than anybody else. What about a category like this?
Bland — Castles and hamlets with kings, dukes, sheriffs and rangers.
Pulpy! — Cosmopolitan cities where continent-spanning trade routes meet; freebooting travelers far from their native people; palaces and pleasure-gardens full of ambassadors and slaves; decadent empires spanning desert and jungle, mountains and sea.
Or something, I dunno.
The end of my thoughts! When I think about different ways to approach the problem, those are things that come to mind.
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Member | Simon C posts 90 7:20 pm May 19, 2010
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Those are good thoughts! You're dead right about the animal people.
I will think about how to incorporate these into the document. It might be challenging, but I think it will ultimately improve it.
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Member | Simon C posts 90 2:33 am May 28, 2010
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Here's the latest version of the primer:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/116449…..mer0.5.pdf
It's got new content, new ad text, and (slightly) new layout.
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Member | Dan Maruschak Eugene, OR posts 30 2:46 pm May 28, 2010
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I still think the ad needs to be clearer about "On Mighty Thews" being a complete game that's distinct from this pamphlet. Maybe you could change the "available now" to something that indicates that, along the lines of "Get the full game at".
Maybe a minor point, but your opening text promises a two-column format, but one of the first pages the reader will see on opening the pamphlet (if I understand the fold pattern properly) is the "Names for People" page, which is a one-column page. Have you considered swapping the order of the "Names for People" page with the ad? (putting the ad inside might also help with the "this looks like a cover" thing).
Right now your name is kind of hidden in the credits box. Both from a branding POV and in terms of building a personal connection with your customers that seems like a mistake to me. Should your name at least be in the ad somewhere?
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Admin
| joshua posts 217 1:19 pm June 3, 2010
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OK, I think we're going in circles here.
Simon, take the feedback and do what you need to do with it.
I'm closin' up shop for a month. Good work, everybody!
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