Forum : [3 Crows] Layout commentary

You must be logged in to post Login Register

Search 
Search Forums:


 




[3 Crows] Layout commentary

Topic Locked
Post

Robert Bohl – Admin

3:23 pm – September 15, 2009

posts 53

1

Hey folks,

I recently took up my first freelancing layout gig for Brennan Taylor. He asked me to lay out his new minigame Three Black Crows, Three Dead Men: A Gallows Tale. I'm looking for some feedback on the layout (not the game, I have no touch on that). You can find it here.

Brennan is looking into getting some more art and he suggested a watermark or something which I like. I also thought getting a border image might be nice.

My endeavors:
Misspent Youth: Teenage rebellion in a fucked-up future.
The Independent Insurgency

joshua – Admin

4:26 pm – September 15, 2009

posts 112

2

I'm generally inclined against borders — they cramp a page. I think this layout benefits in particular from starkness

Two more pictures, so there's one for each crow, would be nice, yeah. The fact that it's three pages really helps that, too.

Indentation, like in Vincent's text, is working against you on short lines. “The Dissenter's statement is as follows” is floating around in space. I'd do something else to differentiate it. It's a header, after all.

I really, really like the columns, with one side explaining while the other illustrates. I just figured that out, though, and I think this is why: the columns change size and the right one seems subordinate to the left one. The righthand looks like a sidebar, but it's not — it's real content, not filler and not something you can come back and read later. You've got a two-dimensional page here, rather than just a wrapped line, but it's not clear what order to read it in.

So I'd suggest figuring out how to make the page so you can read one with the other expanding.

I have an aesthetic issue with the columns, too: they don't seem to have any real proportion to each other. They change size from one page to the next, and the sizes seem guided by page-scale concerns, rather than document-scale.

I wholly approve of the font. It seems to be a relative of Centaur. What is it?

Joshua A.C. Newman

Robert Bohl – Admin

6:39 pm – September 15, 2009

posts 53

3

Do you think that with “the dissenter's statement,” that that should be unindented? I guess I could do something like I have with “After the narrator’s”

As to the two columns, the left is rules text and the right is example text. So it's sorta subordinate text, but not fully. I'm not sure what you mean by “I'd suggest figuring out how to make the page so you can read one with the other expanding.”

The columns definitely do have proportion to each other. The left column is 2/3rds of the page, and the right is 1/3rd on the first page. On the second page, it's 1/3rd and 2/3rds respectively. On the last page it's half and half. This was actually “necessitated” by the fact that the text goes from “RULES examples” to “rules EXAMPLES” halfway through. It doesn't work for you?

The font is BernhardModernStd. I'm glad it goes over well. I was afraid it might be too slim for screen-reading. Brennan said he was looking for a gothy look and feel.

My endeavors:
Misspent Youth: Teenage rebellion in a fucked-up future.
The Independent Insurgency

Simon C – Member

7:50 pm – September 15, 2009

posts 54

4

This is just based on impressions, rather than any actual knowledge of what I'm doing, but I find the placement of the pictures a little jarring.  On the first page it looks like it's about to crash into the text box for the example text, and on the third page it's floating in the middle of nowhere.

I think the second page is the most successful in terms of rules text to example text.

I notice that on the second page the rules text is aligned with the center of the relevant example text, but on the third page, it's aligned with the top of the example text.  On the first page, there doesn't seem to be a consitant relationship.  Maybe keeping it consitant throughout will help deliniate the relationship between the two?

I'd think about moving the text of your first example box back into the main body.  Your first paragraph now begins with “The crows…” and I'm thinking “what crows?” and I don't know until I read the callout text on the right, which I'd normally read second.

Robert Bohl – Admin

8:06 pm – September 15, 2009

posts 53

5

Excellent points, Simon. I'll ponder.

My endeavors:
Misspent Youth: Teenage rebellion in a fucked-up future.
The Independent Insurgency

Ogre Whiteside – New Member

Seattle Washington

12:49 am – September 16, 2009

posts 1

6

There seems to be an awful lot of white space around the edges. was this on purpose?


I like the muted blue hues, by the way.

Robert Bohl – Admin

10:49 am – September 17, 2009

posts 53

7

It wasn't on purpose, but I'm very happy with it. I think that lots of white space around something is a good look (see shock:).

There's no blue!

My endeavors:
Misspent Youth: Teenage rebellion in a fucked-up future.
The Independent Insurgency

Alan De Smet – Member

12:13 am – September 22, 2009

posts 6

8

I had reservations about the font. It felt too fiddly and ornate for body text. I suspected I would be suffering from eyestrain after a few pages.  But printing it out and reading off paper it worked fine.

The shading and the border, especially the border, make the example play appear to be a stream of unrelated sidebars instead of a single coherent story.  The example play stands strong on its own, and it was frustrating to have it cut up this way.

The example play stands so very strongly that I wanted to read it as straight fiction of three crows crafting a story between themselves.  The example play mixes the spoken story with mechanics, with no formatting to distinguish between the two. The end result feels like I'm reading a story mostly composed of dialogue into which random bits of nonsensical action and numbers have been added.  Setting the mechanics off by font, size, indentation, or something might help.

If you're considering a watermark effect, have you considered using the watermark itself to mark the two columns as being different content?  To toss out one idea: Get a simple silhouette of the upper body of a crow, make it big enough to mostly cover one of the two columns, bleeding off at least most of the left and right sides, probably the bottom as well.  Crop it at the center between the two columns.

Robert Bohl – Admin

11:07 am – October 2, 2009

posts 53

9

Ok, I have another pass at this, with Brennan getting us some more artwork. The column games I was playing I liked, but I wound up going to a more traditional style of interleaving examples and text. I think it reads much clearer now, and still looks good.

My endeavors:
Misspent Youth: Teenage rebellion in a fucked-up future.
The Independent Insurgency

joshua – Admin

12:18 pm – October 2, 2009

posts 112

10

Is there a reason you condensed the title text instead of working with line breaks in the intro copy?

Why is the intro copy where it is, vertically?

Why is the last picture the size it is?

Are these to be printed on Tabloid with something on the back cover? If so, what's going on the back cover? If not, why do the page numbers alternate sides? Oh, and if you're going to have it be a fold-over, maybe it should have a front cover instead, which would mean the page numbers would be on opposite sides.

The falling feather and other elements are balanced very, very nicely. Maybe you can reuse one, reduced, as an ornament at the very end?

Joshua A.C. Newman

Robert Bohl – Admin

3:20 pm – October 2, 2009

posts 53

11

I didn't condense the title, I stretched it vertically (but did not squeeze it horizontally). Partly this was to make it more prominent, partly it was to impart that “hanging person” feeling.

That intro phase is actually fairly important to understanding the document, I have it centered on the title and impinging into it a bit.

The last picture has the size it does because it's as big as it can be and still give the rest of that page room to breathe.

This is primarily a screen-viewable PDF, print is a secondary consideration and, as I understand it, up to the individual buyer. I want to support people who want to print it, I don't want to be in their way or anything, but it is a secondary concern.

Where would that last ornament go?

My endeavors:
Misspent Youth: Teenage rebellion in a fucked-up future.
The Independent Insurgency

joshua – Admin

3:49 pm – October 2, 2009

posts 112

12

The title seems sort of “surprised” to me, rather than hanging. It's certainly not the case that there's never a reason to distort a glyph, but it's not a great idea — the proportions of the font that are designed into it all disintegrate.

That intro phase is actually fairly important to understanding the document, I have it centered on the title and impinging into it a bit.

When you look at a rectangle, you don't see its center. You see its corners, then you see its edges. As a result, when you center something, you're getting as far as you can from associating it with the thing you're centering it with.

The last picture has the size it does because it's as big as it can be and still give the rest of that page room to breathe.

Did you try cropping it to make it shorter so it can match the width of the columns? Right now it's floating in the center of the page, unrelated to the margins and column edges.

If it's intended to be viewed onscreen or printed out, I'd guess that few people will print front-back, which means the “2″ will be on the left side of the page and the “3″ will be on the right. Have you printed it out and stapled it to see how it flows?

The last ornament would go at the end of the copy. There are lots of ways to do it. Check out any magazine to see what they've got at the end of each article.

A good example of typography

(Note how the designer finishes with an ornament/dingbat. Also not, apropos the above discussion about centering, that the last two lines are centered precisely so there's a pause between them, deliberately preventing flow. It's clever!)


Terminal dingbats

(This is more or less what I was thinking about.)

Joshua A.C. Newman

Robert Bohl – Admin

1:08 pm – October 3, 2009

posts 53

13

Ok, here's a new one. I took the “stop icon” (removed one of the icons on the prior page and repurposed it to saying “we're done now”), centered the page numbers, and made the top illo on page 3 into something more of a banner. I would've liked to stretch it across both columns of text but embiggenning the image enough to do a full banner pixillated it. What I did instead is make it half and again the size of one of the text columns.

I fucked with the title and the epigram bit.

My endeavors:
Misspent Youth: Teenage rebellion in a fucked-up future.
The Independent Insurgency

Simon C – Member

2:08 am – October 6, 2009

posts 54

14

Is there a reason the bottom two boxes on page two aren't aligned at the bottom?


I'm still not sure about the first paragraph being pulled out like that.  It reads to me like a paragraph break, but a paragraph break doesn't make sense there, so I get confused.  If it were your text, I'd suggest re-writing to get a better flow.


Why are the paragraph breaks so much bigger on the second page?


Have you tried aligning the picture and the text box at the bottom of page one?

joshua – Admin

3:14 pm – October 8, 2009

posts 112

15

I'll fill in my mysteriously lost post quick as I can.

  1. I'm not sure what the second thing is that Simon's talking about, but the other things are very good questions.
  2. Is there a reason the title doesn't relate to the column margins? Have you played with the line breaks in the subtitle copy to see what shapes it can take?
  3. Can the image on page 3 be vectorized so you can embiggen it to reach across both columns?
  4. I actually like that there are two crows on page 2 and the other one is on the last page. It makes them all individuals.
  5. Why are the crows on page 2 where they are, relative to each other?

Joshua A.C. Newman

Simon C – Member

6:33 pm – October 8, 2009

posts 54

16

The second thing I was talking about was the seperation of the content of the first callout box at the top of the first page from the content of the first paragraph.  When I'm reading, I interpret the jump from the callout box to the first paragraph as a paragraph break,  I expect them to be seperate ideas, or a jump in perspective.  But they're not.  The callout text flows straight into the first paragraph.  With that first text cut off, the opening paragraph reads strangely to me.

Search 

About the xenoglyph forum

Most Users Ever Online:

22


Currently Online:

7 Guests

Forum Stats:

Groups: 1

Forums: 4

Topics: 36

Posts: 335

Membership:

There are 77 Members

There have been 8 Guests

There are 2 Admins

There are 0 Moderators

Top Posters:

Simon C – 54

lumpley – 28

doc – 15

Josh Crowe – 7

Alan De Smet – 6

Suna – 6

Administrators: joshua (112 Posts), Robert Bohl (53 Posts)